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ArcGamer
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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 05:52 AM
Just read about this


http://www.latintimes.com/1500-year-old-bible-discovered-tur...

Not sure other people's opinions. I'm an aethiest but was raised catholic and christian so was just curious what other people thought about this. It's not meant as a shot at anyone.




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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 09:52 AM


the idea that the vatican suppressed christian texts is nothing new (and it is likely true). nor does it fundamentally change the core belief system of christianity.

on a base level, christianity can be summed up in three sentences:

"I believe in a creator God who is our spiritual Father"
"I believe He sent His son to die for us to teach us a valuable lesson"
"I believe that we should all be excellent to each other, as His son taught us"

the second of those sentences is a reference to the notion that "the wages of sin is death", which is used to explain why Jesus had to die. however, even if we are to believe He ascended to heaven alive, His earthly life still had to end (so He still died, if you like). it just removes much of the suffering aspect -- which, frankly, could have been embellished just to drive home the sacrifice aspect -- and doesn't fundamentally alter christian mythology at all. Jesus is still God's son, and still died so that we may live.

if you take the islamic view, Jesus was a prophet (pre-Mohammed) and was not the son of God. otherwise, their beliefs are largely the same as the three above.

if people believe this book is real and that the teachings of the bible are not genuine (a realistic possibility, since the Qu'ran teaches something similar and has never been altered) it could be the trigger for some conversions to islam... but i dont see why this changes anything, personally.




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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 10:13 AM


meh, stand today, in a city and witness an event, 100 people will write about that event, 20 will be notable, 5 will be officiated. everyones version will be different, some will be utterly wrong, some pristinely truthful, some vague, some fanciful.

im pretty much with k-chan on this, cept if he doesn't get crucified then it moots the died for us point, which is pretty much the logo of Christianity. if he just pisses off home when he is finished playing on earth, its not noteworthy. the only thing I can think of is that the combination of god and man being jesus ends and returns to be purely god in heaven....... but no, because it is said he is seated at the right hand of god the father in heaven.

the books themselves I feel contain allot of... uhm, fluff... things that are not necessary, it doesn't matter who begat who, begat who, who bagat, who made up one of the tribes of Israel... (in a spiritual sense at least) it doesn't matter what colour someones toes were painted... and allot of things I feel have been written in by people pursuing their own ends.
plus, logically, the word of god is his story.... the story of god, every tale teller will tell it differently again... embellish, add details etc etc... the core thread and a persons individual belief in it is all that is important.

since Christianity feels to me like it is lead by the example of self sacrifice for others, I feel jesus does need to have been crucified, that its utterly important to the sect.







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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 10:25 AM


I get called crazy for talking to my imaginary friend, why is it ok for you to talk to yours?


I don't think this will make much difference to those who believe strongly, unless they perceive this to be grounds for going on a witch hunt - be it that books says one are wrong or that people are claiming that they are wrong.




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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 10:37 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Icewing  

I don't think this will make much difference to those who believe strongly, unless they perceive this to be grounds for going on a witch hunt - be it that books says one are wrong or that people are claiming that they are wrong.
mhm. I asked gramma what she thought of the (other) unpublished bible gospels etc... she said she wasn't sure, and that it seemed like dodgy tricks ment to confuse people.





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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 10:49 AM


Quote: Originally posted by shadow_sniper  
Quote: Originally posted by Icewing  

I don't think this will make much difference to those who believe strongly, unless they perceive this to be grounds for going on a witch hunt - be it that books says one are wrong or that people are claiming that they are wrong.
mhm. I asked gramma what she thought of the (other) unpublished bible gospels etc... she said she wasn't sure, and that it seemed like dodgy tricks ment to confuse people.


The old dickhead god testing you one eh?




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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 10:55 AM


no. she is the cuddly fluffy kind of Christian. only the devil does douchey things, god loves you, jesus loves you.





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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 11:22 AM


Yeah, but that's how I feel about the testing thing :p



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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 12:17 PM


cue the religious blood bath on the internet that will eventually trickle into the real world. fox news is gonna have a field day with this.

somehow i can see this just turning into a fiasco of "homosexuality is a sin" and how abortions are murder. it seems unrelated but honestly you could murder someone and claim that god spoke to you and you could get away with it.

people tend to only quote the bible when its convenient for them and then ignore all the parts where they are in the wrong. if anything the ones that are strongly religious and in power could claim this is an act of terrorism. either because the idea of it scares them or they are truly ignorant like that. and then you'll have people enlightened by this and perhaps switch beliefs. or you'll have people like me looking at this, interested and impressed, but on the fence of it all.




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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 08:10 PM



It doesn't really matter.

Kayos made the point already.

Mostly this will cause a few zealots to get their panties in a big twist, and tussle some poor Baptist's johnnies, but I think you'll find that the only people really interested in something like this are historians and scholars.






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[*] posted on 5-8-2014 at 12:58 AM


thank you all for your opinions. It was nice to get some honest feedback without all the blundering "fanboyism" from both sides. Still not sure what to take of it but I also remember reading the book of Judas which also had some interesting takes, and that mixed with the whole Judas dying in place of Jesus, makes even more sense, but who knows.



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[*] posted on 5-8-2014 at 09:33 AM


Quote: Originally posted by ArcGamer  
thank you all for your opinions. It was nice to get some honest feedback without all the blundering "fanboyism" from both sides. Still not sure what to take of it but I also remember reading the book of Judas which also had some interesting takes, and that mixed with the whole Judas dying in place of Jesus, makes even more sense, but who knows.

I think i remember a supposed gospel of judas... and it was supposed to be that judas' sacrifice is that he has to betray jesus in order for jesus to die on the cross for us and our sins to be forgiven?






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[*] posted on 5-8-2014 at 02:02 PM


Quote: Originally posted by shadow_sniper  
no. she is the cuddly fluffy kind of Christian. only the devil does douchey things, god loves you, jesus loves you.

well... that is what it says in the bible (james 1:13, 1 john 1:5, revelation 12:9) even in the case of job, God does not test him. He simply allows the devil to (job 1:8-12)

though this point (that it may be some trickery) does remind me vaguely of scripture and the signs that armageddon is close. something along the lines of people's faith being tested, christians will be hated etc etc. this would certainly fit into that narrative. soo... i suspect this kind of thing will be ignored by many christians on the grounds of "lol, sneaky satan trying to fool us" or something along those lines. satan is "the deceiver" after all.


Quote: Originally posted by teh Raven  
it seems unrelated but honestly you could murder someone and claim that god spoke to you and you could get away with it.

ehhhh.... not really. the bible commands us to obey the laws of the land, and also tells us that if God spoke to us, His commands would not contradict His word (i.e. the bible).

you'd have a hard time convincing any court or christian congregation that God told you to commit murder. in fact, a christian congregation would most likely tell you the voice was satan and condemn you. courts would probably just say you're insane and section you.




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[*] posted on 5-8-2014 at 02:10 PM


I don't really see how something from the 5th century "proves" anything.

This was already well after all the politicking of the Council of Nicaea.

Are you telling me that 50 to 300 years isn't more than plenty enough time for even more revisionism, politicking, and reactionism by certain factions to push their versions?

Personally, I don't buy into the concept that those who wrote the gospels (those that were not discarded) were somehow anointed by the 'holy spirit' to convey truths. Far far far to many contradictory or at least incongruous perspectives and accounts to believe that it was nothing more than the word of men, even if they were true believers.

And then we are to expect that something from 3 centuries later is even more correct?




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[*] posted on 5-10-2014 at 08:19 PM


I agree with zen. The older it is the more accurate.



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[*] posted on 5-11-2014 at 08:41 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Lexander  
I agree with zen. The older it is the more accurate.


I agree with that, which begs the whole what about Egyptian allegory? which took place before jesus but has almost the exact same story.




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[*] posted on 5-11-2014 at 09:11 PM




I'm sure other people here have had this thought, and have probably stated it before, since religion and religious beliefs are a widely discussed topic, but stories that are rather analogous to the story of Jesus of Nazareth are pretty common.

I mean, as far as some character saving a group of people from some sort of evil/conflict/bad spirits/enemy type thing.

The Egyptian Pharaoh's connection to Horus is somewhat like Jesus. The Pharaoh protects and guides the Egyptian people, all while being the mortal manifestation of the highest god in their pantheon.

Then again, maybe the Pharaoh is more analogous to the Pope than to Jesus.

Still, the fact remains that humanity has always created stories about some sort of magnanimous savior.

People have historically needed something/someone to take the blame, to take their burdens, to take responsibility.

Cue the creation of gods and the religions designed to worship them.

And, because gods are hard to relate to, cue the creation of a mortal mouthpiece who is easy to relate to, someone through which we can reach the immortal unknowable deities we created.






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[*] posted on 5-12-2014 at 01:57 AM


I saw a video a long time ago that listed a whole bunch of similar stories from all sorts of cultures. I was pretty surprised.



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[*] posted on 5-12-2014 at 11:02 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Lexander  
I saw a video a long time ago that listed a whole bunch of similar stories from all sorts of cultures. I was pretty surprised.

like the great flood? that's in a fucktonne of different mythologies / religions... Babylonian, Christian, norse, etc etc... scientists eventually confirmed that there was some sort of super tsunami at some point waaaaaaaaaaaay in the past, as they found human bones under some marine deposits ontop of mountains that had been nowhere near the sea for a bazillion years, and too far from it for the people to have randomly decided to build sandcastles up there.






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[*] posted on 5-14-2014 at 09:47 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Lexander  
I saw a video a long time ago that listed a whole bunch of similar stories from all sorts of cultures. I was pretty surprised.


Ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, Indian culture all have similar relations to the Jesus story, either miracles being crucified, son of god.




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